deformity

[Cory]

I had a leo hatch out last night that was perfect in every way EXPECT for one very important thing, its front legs were vestigle at best. At first I thought they were actually fussed together but there are two distinct legs, just not fully formed.

A little background...

The other eggs this one leopard laid were "problem" eggs, one clutch hatched out undersized, one clutch didn't really hatch out at all but needed to be helped and two clutchs just didn't hatch out period. All other eggs from all other breeders hatched out fine, well, the ones that did hatch hatched out fine, I have around a 90% hatch success rate. All my geckos are supplemented the same, all were incubated the same etc. etc.

I don't know much about the female, it was obtained locally from a person who was selling their leopard collection. The male is the same, though I don't think the issue was with him.

Any thoughts or suggestions as to what might have caused this? There was a slight remp. fluc. in my incubator for one day, my son twisted the gauge and it cooled down to around 76 degrees, as I say, for one day maybe less, and that was around a week ago, I don't think this kind of deformity could have occured due to a temp fluc. so late in development.

Also, the baby can get around pretty quick on its back legs and what it does have for front legs, I don't know if it will be able to hunt and catch food though. At what point should I consider quality of life for this leo and make a decision on its future. I mean obviously it will be a pet only, prolly staying here with us should it survive, but is there a point where it might be better to euthanize? Something I would not do lightly...

Thanks for any and all input... if interested, I can try and get some pics tonight....

Thanks again

 

[Cryptly]

If the little one can get around fine, doesn't seem to be in pain, and can get food, I wouldn't put it down. It would need a lot more care and attention than normal geckos. Food may have to be disabled in some way (maybe fed by hand?). The enclosure would have to be set up so the little one can move around witout worry of falling or other injury (easy to get into humid hides ect).

I would give the little one a chance as a pet only, as long as it didn't show signs of any other serious health issue.

 

[Cory]

that was my thinking as well.... thanks....

 

[robin]

sometimes you have males or females that for whatever reason throw deformities. it's nothing you are doing but rather the leo. in cases like that the animals should be sold as pet only at a discounted price and strictly said not to be bred but you have to narrow it down if it the male or female

 

[nora]

i'd say keep the lil one and raise it up yourself rather than selling it as robin suggested....who knows what kind of care the lil guy (or gal) will get once it leaves your care... but if you had bred that female to different males in the past, then chances are the female's throwing "bad" eggs.. and perhaps should be retired..

 

[Cory]

Yeah I had no intention of giving to anyone, but I think Robin was referring to the female breeder?

Thanks for the input guys

 

[robin]

i'd say keep the lil one and raise it up yourself rather than selling it as robin suggested....who knows what kind of care the lil guy (or gal) will get once it leaves your care... but if you had bred that female to different males in the past, then chances are the female's throwing "bad" eggs.. and perhaps should be retired..

i am talking about the parents. if he suspects one of the parents is throwinhg deformities. if the little guy is able to live a good, QUALITY life i say keep him and let him have a try at it.

 

[Cory]

YAY... I understood the post.... lol.....

 

[robin]

sometimes my posts are hard top read ... sorry for that

 

[Dee]

Update (warning, disturbing content)

Sadly, the little gecko with the malformed arms didn't make it. She passed sometime last night, but the manner in which she died is rather grisly.

She had eaten a mealie or two and was in shed when Cory checked on her last night. When he found her this morning, she was lying on her back, already gone. But here's the grisly part: her belly had ruptured and her intestines were actually on the outside. The rupture had occurred at her umbilical point; she still had her deflated yolk sac attached after hatching, but it dropped off on its own that same night and her belly looked to be fine at that point. We figure that whatever prevented her forelegs from forming properly must have also caused a defect in her stomach wall.

RIP little one.

 

[robin]

i am very sorry to hear that she died.

 

[John N]

That's truly some sad news, sorry about the little bugger.

 

[M_surinamensis]

We figure that whatever prevented her forelegs from forming properly must have also caused a defect in her stomach wall.

I do not want to get into a fight over it, but this is part of why I am a strong proponent of culling defects.

Reptiles are not "smart" they're a little bundle of hardwired instinctive responses to stimulus and while conditions both internal and external can cause a shift in the displayed behaviors, there isn't always a direct correlation between injury/deformity and a behavioral adaptation to it. Take this animal's case as an example, it clearly had a number of external problems and in retrospect some internal ones as well- but the issues with it's plumbing did not prevent it from acting in a manner as close to "normal" as possible, up to and including the continued ingestion of food which resulted in it's inevitable death.

Reptiles also do not show pain or emotion on a human level, or even the level of other mammals. To rely on such as an indicator of discomfort will be inherently inaccurate since they aren't even capable of some of what we would tend to associate with pain.

My suggestion is always to cull early, cull often and keep records in an attempt to track patterns. One deformity from a given pairing is a fluke. Two is a line, three's a pattern- apply that on a per clutch basis (since an incubation snafu can take out more than one egg) and you'll be left with healthy stock.

The other main reason is, of course, the potential for genetic contamination when the possibility exists that there is a cause which was not environmental or developmental. Containment of defects and the general improvement of captive stock should be paramount in the mind of any breeder, be they someone producing three quarters of the captive population for a given species or someone who only owns one male and one female and wants to give it a shot.

Edit: I used the word "possibility" seven or eight times in that last bit, changed the wording slightly so it reads better.

 

[Dee]

Thanks guys, and Seamus, you won't get much argument here. I'm pretty sure that particular female is off the breeding list. She doesn't seem to be producing anything truly healthy, and breeding seems to have taken a heavy toll on her as well -- more weight loss than we're really comfortable with. She'll make a good pet from here on in. We've taken a couple of other females off our breeding list and labelled them "pets only" for similar reasons.

Aside from that, we don't mind giving a malformed hatchling a chance as long as the quality of life isn't visibly impaired; i.e. the gecko can get around, eat, shed, etc. If we did decide to give the gecko that chance and they survived, breeding would be absolutely out of the question. This little one was only about a week old; we were still waiting to see what would happen, and whether she would be able to function. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view) we got a very definitive answer.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I'd call it unfortunate that the deformity happened at all but fortunate that the answer about quality of life was fairly quickly settled.

I tend to go for a more... irreversible... form of culling myself, mostly due to practical concerns and the ambiguity of "forever" when it comes to a decision to keep an animal as a pet outside of any breeding projects- but can't really fault that approach when the quality of life is questionable. Only when it's absolutely not present would I argue that euthanasia is the only option.

Also VERY glad to see that you'll be moving the animals which produced the deformed offspring out of your breeding groups once the pattern of questionable results came up. I do not want to say that the majority of breeders would not do the same (since I believe most would take the ethical path you have) but every once in awhile you see someone who will continue to use the same animals for production that'll just hide the existance of the problem and continue selling the deformed animal's overtly healthy siblings.

 

[Gregg M]

I do not want to get into a fight over it, but this is part of why I am a strong proponent of culling defects.

I could not agree more....
You can always sell a deformed leo as a "pet only", but you have no idea what the person buying it is going to do with it once it is in their hands... This can cause a contamination in the captive breeding stock....

If I see a deformity in a hatchling, it will go to one of my baby gaboons or to my buddies monitor lizards.... I have only seen 2 or 3 in the last 4 years or so....

ANY deformities should be culled....